A few words about Deathly Hallows

[ebonlock]

Ok so, book 7...

I would like to say that I didn't hate this book, per se, nor will I swear off all things Potter henceforth. I will undoubtedly remain a fan and I'm even looking forward to reading a lot of the fic this book inspires. Hell, I may write some of it myself.

However, I've seen a lot of people lining up to turn this book into a religious war and I would like to say that feeling the need to lead a crusade, possibly alienate friends and acquaintances, and act like a general ass about a work of fiction is, in a word, foolish. If you loved the book and thought it was the greatest thing ever written in the history of literature, hey, good on you. I'm delighted it worked for you, I truly am. I wish I could share the sentiment but I can't and no amount of strident pleas, logical arguments or pointing at critical response is going to change that.

If you hated the books and will never, ever, ever read another word in the Potter universe because JKR is not getting another cent of your money, well I'm very sorry. I mean I'm profoundly sad that we'll not be able to discuss the series in the future. But no matter of impassioned, angry rants, logical arguments or pointing at critical response is going to change my mind either.

There were some things in the book I enjoyed, though they were few and far between. There were some things in the book I would just as happily have skimmed over or skipped entirely had I been reading alone. There was a scene or two I loved, and several that I outright hated. Overall I found the book extremely disappointing, and I will admit I spent several days last week utterly depressed after I'd read the spoilers.

But you see I understand that this is my opinion about a work of literature. I do not expect anyone to share it, I don't look down on anyone who doesn't, and I expect the same respect from everyone else. I am entitled to my rational, emotional and literary responses to the work, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is every bit as bad as every other religious zealot out there. Your opinion is yours and you're welcome to it, just don't try and cram it down my throat.

Allow me to reiterate just for clarity's sake, anybody out there who alienates a single friend because of an opinion about this book is a fool. An absolute, unmitigated fool.

However I will say that if you liked the epilogue we probably should never discuss it. Seriously, just don't tell me. I don't want to know.

Now, I'd love to point you at Rexluscus' take on the Snape revelations in Book 7 which almost completely mirror my own. We differ on a couple of points, but her overall summary got me definitely nodding. Shouldn't need to say this, but there are spoilers.

Comments are definitely open and I'm delighted to hear everyone's take on the book.

UPDATE: aelfsciene just sent me this very funny review of book 7 which I just had to share:

Page stillnonumbersbutafterthetableofcontents: A quote from Aeschylus and another quote from More Fruit of Solitude by William Penn. I am reminded of how Joe Queenan once suggested that if mediocre books were going to preface with quotes from great literature, how great literature could return the favour by prefacing themselves with quotes from Tom Clancy explaining the technical specifications of a military helicopter.

Read the rest, it's so worth it.

Comments

[pikabot]

The epilogue garnered a 'meh' reaction from me, except for the names. ALBUS SEVERUS POTTER ARE YOU ON CRACK. Aside from that, the thing didn't strike me so much as bad as pointless.

The rest of the book was pretty much exactly what I was expecting: enjoyable, but mediocre. Some of it was excellent (Hagrid tackling a death-eater in midair, for example) some of it was terrible (Dear Rowling you cannot write romance for shit, stop trying), a lot of it was bland.

By far the most annoying things was how Rowling somehow managed to make her canon even MORE incestuous, and the DC-Comics-Esque mass slaughter of minor characters in an attempt to artificially generate tension, while leaving the main characters unscathed.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Agreed on almost every point, the body count of pointless deaths in a vain effort to generate emotion was just pathetic.

But we'll have to agree to disagree on the epilogue, it read to me like something that had been scribbled by a 14 year old girl in loopy cursive and decorated around the borders with unicorn stickers. Though I'll see your Albus Severus and raise you a Scorpious Malfoy. There are already shippers, btw, and the ship is called AS/S. ASS for short.

[pikabot]

Well, I never said the epilogue was GOOD. It was just...bland. Maybe it's because I'd heard horror stories about the epilogue, and as such was braced for something much, much worse. And was willing to let Scorpius slide, as the Malfoy family has an existing history of incredibly lame names.

The only deaths that affected me in any way were Dobby and Fred. Hedwig just made me roll my eyes and say 'HERE we go', I didn't even notice that Lupin and Tonks bought it, and none of the others made any effect on me.

If Rowling really wanted to kill peoplle off to generate tension, she should have killed a major character. Kill Ron, kill Hermione, kill Harry, kill Ginny. George RR Martin does this to great effect: no character at ALL in his books is safe. Any of them can die unexpectedly. The early run of Exiles(before Claremont got his grubby little hands on it and it went to shit) did this as well: The team's lineup was constantly changing as the heros died in action and were replaced.

Death as it appears in Rowling's book, though, it so obviously jsut weak shock-effect nonsense that it's not even worthing mentioning.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

See that's part of why I felt cheated by this one, you throw bodies at us but nobody really big dies. Well, ok, for me Snape is the main character of the books and his death was a major blow, but she kind of waved it off. Then, just to twist the knife makes sure it was utterly meaningless as it didn't even help Voldie.

And the Harry pseudo-death was just retarded.

But yeah, Ron or Hermione really should've bit it in the final battle. You don't just kill of Fred 'cause you threw Percy back and the Weasleys can afford to lose a son. The readers knew from start to finish that no matter how bad things got those three were safe and it just cheapened the whole thing.

[pikabot]

I was actually rooting for Ron or Hermione to get offed in the first half of the book, and then the other spend the whole book getting more and more obsessed with revenge until he or she dies tragically in the final act. Ah well.

You know what else bothered me? The Elder Wand. What a throughly POINTLESS subplot.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Why don't you mean the DEATHSTICK!!!!

Jesus god, once that had been repeated about 30 times I was ready to club JKR with my own handmade death stick. Indeed the entire Hallows secondary widget hunt was the biggest fucking waste of time in a fantasy novel that I have read in ages. I mean seriously, ages.

[pikabot]

The annoying thing is, it actually started off fairly interestingly. The bits with Harry seeing Voldemort abroad, doing mysterious things? That was good! But then the big reveal sucked and sucked hard.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Amen to that. And everybody's ok with him just dropping one of the three uber-powerful Hallows somewhere in the forest. Although, admittedly, it was an even lamer Hallow than the DEATHSTICK!!!!

If anyone can explain to me why he'd even want Harry to go on a quest for these things in the first place I'd love to know. Oh and it would've been really cool if he'd maybe mentioned the whole Elder Wand thing to Snape. "By the way, after you kill me you might want to hide my wand someplace other than in my crypt. Like, oh I dunno', maybe the moon or something."

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

If anyone can explain to me why he'd even want Harry to go on a quest for these things in the first place I'd love to know.

I'll admit, that part of that chapter really confused me. I would have read that a lot slower on my own, trying to suss out what she really meant. But I finally gave up and told myself that Dumbledore was hoping that in gathering the Hallows that Harry could die-but-not-really when he faced VoldemorT. Which is ridiculous, really, especially the nonsense about drawing out the quest for the Hallows deliberately so that he wouldn't be obsessed with their power the way Albus was... ETF?

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

WTF. ETF? Jeez, I'm down with making up acronyms today.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

'Cause under his plan, he wanted Voldemort to have it after he died undefeated. Sort of giving Voldemort a gun and claiming it was loaded. Or something. But it backfired because (I think) Draco managed to disarm him, thus 'defeating' him.

Of course, due to the workings of Fate, it wasn't much of a backfire. Except that the entire plan misfired on 'poor Severus'. Oh well! Everybody (except Voldey) is happy in dead-land.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Er, but that's why Dumbledore wanted Voldie to go on said quest, why have Harry do it as well? And if he wanted Voldemort to go after his wand, why the hell not just have Snape mention, "Oh say, your Lordship, I heard Albus had one kickass wand. Maybe you should go rob his tomb and steal it from him."

[jsmitty-o.livejournal.com]

This basically confirms what I mentioned at R's birthday dinner with her Dad. This series is a set of children's books after all. Anyone can claim for as long as they want that it didn't end up being a children's book, but I still call hogwash on that. The author still has to make this about the kids and make it for the kids. The fact that us adults still are interested in it is just a bonus. I knew she'd never kill any of the Trio. However, I still thought she could have killed off more of the other "big characters" than she did.

This is the first I've read (I'm still catching up on all the DH cut tag) that the pseudo-death was retarded. I agree. She could have done something different with his sacrifice.

But omigosh, are some people you know really ready to disown friends over a frakking book?? SRSLY? Oy vey.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

Smiles at you
I never do understand when folks take this stuff a bit too seriously.

ps - thinking of trying to go to the movie this week?

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

ps - thinking of trying to go to the movie this week?

I would love to do it this week. Oh I need me some Snape in the worst way. What evening would work best for you? As far as I know the weekend's pretty free as well.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

my parents are coming to town Friday for 2 weeks

so Tues or Wed is good. I just need a heads up to book the babysitter

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Wednesdays are probably best for me if it works for you. Looks like there's still a 7:00 showing, would you prefer that or 7:30? And does Shoreline still work for you?

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

I just called the sitter and booked her for Wednesday so any time is ok by me. If you want to meet first for a quick bite- i'm good for that too. Either on Castro st. or maybe over at Michaels (is that the name of the place by the water near there? I forget)

any way - i'm flexible

Rickey

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Normally I'd be all over a dinner out but my stomach remains a bit...touchy just now. I'm having to be extremely careful about what I put in it. But if you'd like to meet a little before the film so we have time to chat why don't we meet around 6 at the theater and walk over to Starbuck's across the street? I'll get some nice de-caf something and by the time we walk back it'll be time to go in for the film.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

sounds good to me

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

I thought the epilogue would have been easier to follow if she'd done something different with the names. Scorpius and Albus actually worked for me better than James and Lily, which left me going 'and who the heck are Rose and Hugo named after?' as well as 'ew'.

The Deathly Hallows didn't bother me because their introduction reflected the structure and style of the previous books. Heck, so did the dragging scenes and the angst.

My impression of the death count wasn't that it was gratuitously large to raise tension, but that it was large to indicate that war sucks and people die, especially people on the front lines. Admittedly, I've been expecting one of the twins to die since, like, book 2. Percy wasn't the 'extra son', Fred and/or George was.

I think a big source of fandom conflict might be the assignment of different motivations on the part of the author. But since that's only communicated through the medium of the book itself, I suppose it ends up mirroring the reader more than anything else.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Personally I would've liked the epilogue better if it hadn't a) been set 19 years in the future where everyone is happy and life is perfect, b) had actually resolved a whole helluva lot of dangling character's plots, and c) didn't read like dreadful fanfic.

I think I would've had more respect for the deaths that did occur in the book if a) Hedwig and Dobby didn't get more attention than, say, Remus Lupin and Fred Weasley, b) she hadn't so blatantly used them in an emotionally manipulative manner, c) hadn't cheated on Harry's death, and d) had actually killed off either Ron or Hermione (possibly both).

There was never a doubt in my mind that the trio would live, never, even when Harry's death sentence was revealed (and can I just pause to say yay that Severus was totally fucking pissed about that). And there should have been, even a tiny sliver of apprehension that they might get whacked. But I knew they were safe, she'd never kill one of them just as much as I knew my beloved Severus was doomed.

It just would've been really nice to have been even a little surprised by the book, to have had one aspect of it not be glaringly obvious, and for her to have actually given us part of these clues earlier on in the books so that entire chapters weren't turned into complete expository babble. Remove the exposition, the plot devices and dear, sweet Jesus that epilogue, and you've got a pretty damn good 3-400 page novel that would've worked. As it is it's a big, bloated mess of a novel in desperate need of editing.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

See, I considered the predictability of it 'satisfying', mostly. All the stuff I could predict happening, happening, mostly made me happy. Some of the places where I couldn't predict (because I didn't have enough information) also made me happy, because they were interesting and did what I expected in the broad scheme of things. Like 'new stuff is introduced in each novel'.

I was so delighted with Snape's dialogue in his flashback scenes. So glad that after the initial Lily-desperate stuff, he seemed to treat Dumbledore like an equal and a partner rather than a mentor. I was also happy that very subtle hints that Dumbledore wasn't /exactly/ the saint everybody thought he was turned out to have some relevance.

I think with the epilogue, while I was disappointed in '19 years later' and the kind of abrupt ending-on-day-of-victory thing, it wasn't a big deal other than my curiousity about this thing she'd written as her candybar scene 17 years ago. And as a candybar, it made me wonder if it was her candybar, or Harry's-- was it a representation of what SHE wanted, or what she promised herself she'd give Harry after being mean to him for so many years.

I don't know that there SHOULD have been apprehension about the trio getting whacked. I had a tiny bit but it was based entirely on external factors rather than the books themselves. Reading it cold was more like watching certain kinds of action movies.

Pre-book, I did imagine lots of tasty possibilities involving more personal darkness and redemption than the characters had to deal with. But I think that's a reflection of the sort of thing I want to write rather than anything supported by the previous books. And I didn't imagine just how snarky she made Snape to Dumbledore so it kind of balanced.

I wonder if Draco was reprieved from epilogue doom because she wanted to make a point about how he wasn't going to pull a Kenshin (or a Kreacher) no matter how much he was saved.

I am currently thinking she had a lot of 'points to make' and maybe they didn't end up working so well on some segment of readers. But that could just be because I'd try to do that kind of thing. Or would have, before thinking these thoughts. Hmmm.

[pikabot]

"and for her to have actually given us part of these clues earlier on in the books so that entire chapters weren't turned into complete expository babble"

THat's another thing that bothers me. Why the FUCK haven't we heard of this Grindelwald guy before? You'd think that the defeat of the second most powerful dark wizard in history would warrant a mention on his Chocolate Frog card, but if memory serves it did not.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Well we had heard about him briefly, but not in this "The History Channel Present: Nazis of the Wizarding World" way. I believe it's been mentioned that Minerva helped Dumbledore fight against Grindewald's forces actually. What I'd like to know is why Lily and Snape's friendship has never come up before and WTF was up with cutting her out of the fifth movie?

[pikabot]

Uh. I didn't mean to respond to this comment, I meant to respond to the one you were responding to. Whoops.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

I really am glad it worked for you and that you felt you got the payoff you deserved from the series. I truly wish, believe me, that I could say the same. I guess after watching the tv series Life on Mars I'd built my hopes up a little too much. That show gave me everything I could've hoped for, and even though I knew how things would turn out in the end, I had a helluva good time getting there. It spoiled me.

I really wanted that experience here in DH and when I didn't get it, well first I was pissed, then just sad. But, again, there's still fanfiction and I'm quite certain this book is going to infuse a whole lot of writers with boat loads of inspiration. Those who loved it remaining strictly in cannon, and those who didn't spinning stories to "fix" what they didn't enjoy.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

I guess I just haven't had the experience where I've found a storyteller who completely matched everything I wanted from a story. I'm far more /used/ to writers who do 60-80% of what I want, so I'm content with less. I think it's cool that you've found things that HAVE satisfied you so perfectly.

Has the fanfic world branched out into plays and radio dramas and other things aimed at being shared aloud?

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Has the fanfic world branched out into plays and radio dramas and other things aimed at being shared aloud?

Well it had back in the Xena days, but I'm not sure about HP, I suspect so, though. The only recordings I have related to this series are a couple of presentations on Snape from the Lumos convention last year. I'm curious, though, all I've seen so far are podcasts...

BTW, if you do fanfic at all and would like to see a really good representation of how I would've loved to see Snape's redemption story go down, I highly recommend: Summon the Lambs to Slaughter (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/La_Guera/Summon_The_Lambs_To_Slaughter/)

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Actually, there's been some talk about people reading Snupin fics aloud and posting them online as MP3s in lupin_snape. I can't imagine those would be the first, either.

[pikabot]

I used to read bad Final Fantasy lemons aloud in humorous accents and post them on the internet. Sadly I no longer have the mp3s of that.

[pikabot]

Actually, now that I think of it, you could make an awesome community around that, if you got enough people involved. A community for fanfiction readings.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely. I'd love to try my hand at it too, but I can't do voices for crap. Not while reading anyway. My cats may beg to differ, as I often talk to them with silly accents. Uh... what were we talking about?

[pikabot]

i dunno, lol

But I could see that being a load of fun. The only problem is, it falls apart if you can't get enough people doing readings. =/

[pikabot]

IT IS DONE

fanfic_readings

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've got a great voice for it, but I'd totally do this. Reading aloud the last two books was actually a lot more fun than I'd imagined.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Most people relish feeling what Ellie feels all the time: right about the plot of a book or movie or television show. Ellie, on the other hand, is sick to death of that feeling and savors the plot twist that wasn't telegraphed to her.

Me? I admire the fuck out of anyone willing to take a risk. I adore George R.R. Martin for killing off the main character 1/3 the way through his first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series. As much as I loved Xander, I was proud of Joss for maiming him. JKR could have done that, easily, to Ron or Hermione. She could have taken some risk. Instead she killed off two characters that, to be frank, I'd never been given any reason to like (Hedwig and Dobby) with quite a bit of gnashing of teeth, then killed two characters I cared a great deal about without any emotion whatsoever (Remus and Tonks).

Fred and Snape, I thought she handled well, though I would have liked a bit more time with Snape's death (though, for me, that's true of all of his scenes). And I would have kissed her feet if Snape too had appeared after he used the Stone of Resurrection.

Huh, and I thought I didn't want to talk about the book....

[pikabot]

>I adore George R.R. Martin for killing off the main character 1/3 the way through his first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series.

<3<3<3

Love ASoIaF. For exactly that reason.

Honestly, even if it's not a character death, it's always awesome when an author keeps you guessing until the last minute.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Honestly, even if it's not a character death, it's always awesome when an author keeps you guessing until the last minute.

Keeps you guessing through deft, well thought out plot twists, yes, but not by withholding information or having characters just suddenly understand something out of the blue. I'm a huge Sherlock Holmes fan, and yet I'll admit there were several stories where Doyle withheld too much because you'd figure the mystery out pretty damn quickly if he didn't. It annoyed the hell out of me. But at least I could forgive it a little because it was being told first person by a guy who wasn't exactly the most observant human being on the planet.

Fair enough.

But there's no reason we couldn't have gotten a more nuanced version of Dumbledore's past a while ago. No reason it couldn't have been well known and mentioned that Snape was friends with Lily, etc., etc. If the storyteller is deft enough they can afford to give you these clues well in advance and still manage to keep you guessing. Sometimes JKR can manage to do that (I thought the reveal in HBP was great, she'd given us all the clues we needed to figure it out but enough red herrings to make us wonder right up to the end), but she didn't even seem to try in this one, which was sad.

[pikabot]

Well, obviously. That's just pulling shit out of your own asshole. But a good, well-set-up mystery that keeps you guessing is fucking gold. The ending of In Fire Forged is one of my favorite examples of it: it hints at it, drops cryptic hints and clues through the two books, and then delivers a sound, satisfying conclusion that makes sense.

[phillipalden.livejournal.com]

Well said. There's no reason to get into arguments or verbal wars over such a book. It's not like it's a religious text or anything.

It's a freaking children's book!

[pikabot]

Lies. It is clearly serious business.

[phillipalden.livejournal.com]

I know. I know.

Personally, I haven't finished the book yet, but I'm enjoying it and not looking to find fault with JK.