Yeah, ok, a bit more about Book 7

[ebonlock]

A couple of things that popped into my brain in this particular book that I wanted to put down somewhere and see if anybody else noticed either. First, was it just me or was this the first book where wizards used the exclamation, "God"? I can't remember a single instance of anyone referring to "God" before, particularly not wizards and had always assumed that for the most part their only religion was magic. I mean these people are the ones who separated themselves from the mundane world due to persecution at the hands of Christians so it would make perfect sense to me that they were practicing atheists. Given that most of what they do is a big fat no-no according to the Bible, again, this doesn't surprise me. So why now?

Second, is there some law in the wizarding world that women can either a) work or b) get married and be a stay at home mom? Look at all the witches in the stories, either they're teaching/Ministry/reporting spinsters or happy housewives. Sure you might argue that Tonks went into battle, so did Mrs. Weasley, etc. but do we have any evidence that either of them was working a regular 9-5 job before that? Tonks quite clearly hadn't returned to the Ministry after having Teddy (for obvious reasons) and we have no way of knowing what she might have done had she lived. But if you can find me one example of a witch who doesn't fit into one of these two seemingly exclusive categories I'd love to see it.

All done.

Comments

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Bellatrix! She had two jobs! Boffing the Dark Lord AND being batshit crazy!

Um...

Er.

Right. You know, I noticed the God thing too. Thought it was really interesting. Who said it? I can't remember.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

I think the God exclamation was used by all of the trio at one point or another and it was supremely weird coming out of Ron's mouth.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Strange. I mean, I can see Harry or Hermione saying it, because they were raised by Muggles, and no matter what religion you are, if you live in an English-speaking country, you're likely to pick up God-related exclamations.

In terms of the jobs vs. families thing -- you got me thinking. What WIZARDS actually had both, aside from Arthur Weasley?

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

I was ranting about this last night (as my full-fledged feminist rant thing is unlikely to go anywhere due to sheer spaz, and you've been much more economical in saying it, anyway), and Kevin pointed out that Marietta Edgecombe's mother worked in the MoM. But that's the single one, and her daughter was clearly weak-willed (or maybe threatened, as they went with in the movie, when substituting Cho), so it's not exactly a ringing endorsement for working mothers.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Ok so we have a total of one working mom, that's totally weak...

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

It was suggested that we didn't see adult's lives, for the most part, that Harry was mostly concerned with the kids' stories, and we don't know how many of the Hogwarts teachers had families (looked like zero) or how many working mothers there might have been. But it feels like a crumbling, circular argument to me, since you can justify pretty much anything that isn't spelled out in the books, that way. All we really have, concretely, is that women should be mothers or single (Bellatrix being the exception, married without kids, but she's a special sort of crazy), that's the end message going out, and it bothers me a lot.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

I really don't mean to be fighty but I guess I'd be a lot more concerned about this if the author was a.) male or b.) had been nothing but a housewife before getting published. Since she spent at least some time as a single working mother, that speaks a lot louder to me than the limitations of Harry's perceptions.

There aren't primary schools, are there? And the only daycare we've seen has been grandparents. Doesn't mean it's not there, just that it hasn't been relevant. My apologies that it's so circular. I did find so much of the series incredibly girl-empowering, so I guess I should stay away from this thread.

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

I guess, ok, at this point, the whole world knows that Rowling is a woman, even though she uses a sexless nom de plume (will readers a few decades from now know this, though?). But I had no idea she'd been a single mom when she started the series! Maybe other fans follow her in addition to her works, but if you don't know that, and all you see is the books, where your choice is to have a job outside of the home or be a mother...well.

We haven't seen a drop about what's supposed to happen with kids until they're 11, it's true, which feels like a big flaw to me. Someone would have to stay home for 11 years to take care of the kids if they didn't have anywhere to go, or have grandparents to watch over them. But then, as you pointed out, the economy/need to work is a little vague, so it may largely be a worldbuilding issue.

I'd definitely like to discuss the girl-empowering thing more when I'm up there, though, because I haven't particularly felt that (I was, in fact, especially annoyed with constantly-crying Hermione in HP7, and the weakening of Tonks' character in 6 and 7), and I'd love to know where you're coming from with it.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

We can discuss the general stuff later but I must say, with as much personal dignity as I can muster, that crying a lot doesn't make somebody weak.

You're totally gonna hate stuff in my current novel.

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

Well, ok, I'm a bit of an ass for saying that, it's a persona button/thing/problem for me.

Of course, I also get the message "love makes you stupid and weak" from a lot of unintended sources (I ranted and raved after seeing Memoirs of a Geisha), so always bring a lot of issues to the media I consume.

[eska-rina.livejournal.com]

But if we look at Hermione, then love didn't make her weak. Sure, she cried, but she still saved the day more or less 700 times.

If there were on person (in the trio) I thought love made weak, then it was Ron. And that was probably more due to his (ver low) self-esteem (sp?).

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

Oh, whoops--I was more meaning the "weak and stupid" argument as another example of baggage I bring with me to media (like my issue with crying), not at all applied to Hermione. She still rocked, and I pretty much love her and Ron's relationship (the kissing scene with the basilisk fangs was absolutely precious).

If anything, the relationship that made me rant most in that vein was Lupin and Tonks!

[tersa.livejournal.com]

rickey_a mentioned the mother in the Wizardmagot that had a daughter at Hogwarts--of course, I forget her name now but I'm pretty sure she was the witch who was arguing against Umbridge in the OotP movie. I think Abbott? I only remember her daughter is in Hufflepuff.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

I think "Bones" was the aunt of Susan Bones, can't remember the other ones.

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

It was Amelia Bones in the Wizengamot, actually, and she's only aunt to Susan Bones. Hannah Abbott's mother was simply killed, we didn't have any other backstory or info on her.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

well in all the books they did celebrate Christmas and also called it the Easter Holidays
There's also been fandom chatter about Anthony Goldstien and the Patil twins - ie, wizards coming from different religious backgrounds

to the second - there's been women working in the Ministry and on the Wizengamot (quite a few women mentioned in GOF at the trial) and also in the stores at Diagon Alley (Mme Malkins) and yeah you mentioned Tonks was an Auror. Oh and Fleur was working at Gringotts. Of course Mme Rosmerta was a bit of a bar wench. The books mostly focussed on the school so truly most of the male characters were teachers or worked in the Ministry as well. Not sure the point you were getting at?

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

Yes, but were any of those working women also mothers? That's the point, that it seems you can either be single and have a job, or married and a mother.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

ahhh got it now (hamster got off the wheel to take a breather)

Hermione's mom's a dentist - oh wait that's Muggle d'oh
ummm trying to think if we've gotten anymore backstory on other friends parents. Not too much that I can think of other than Amelia Bones who was an aunt - not sure if she had kids herself. But in defense we don't really get to know the other kids dad's either. In general we read about women working in various positions - their maternal status unknown.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Yes but how many of those women actually keep working after marriage? Or more accurately, after having kids?

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

Second, is there some law in the wizarding world that women can either a) work or b) get married and be a stay at home mom?

Along those lines, I'm currently sketching an academic article I'm tentatively calling "Harry Potter and the 'Triumph' of Domesticity."

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Please be sure to send that to me, I'd be fascinated to read your take on this.

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

Will do, but be forewarned that it will be a while before I get to pounding out a draft of it...I'm currently doing a 20 page survey of 18th and 19th century gothic fiction and an article on gay ghosts in Dickens. As a preview, I was really struck by the final showdown between Bellatrix and Molly...the independent, childless woman vs. the domestic feminine ideal. The way that confrontation ends seems emblematic to me of the series' overall implications about the primacy of the normative middle-class family. To say I find that problematic in terms of gender roles is an understatement...

Did I ever send you my paper on Tipping the Velvet? I think I may have.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

No I don't recall you sending me that one, but I'd like to read it too if you don't mind. Regarding Bella/Molly, the first thing that popped into my mind was the Ripley/Queen Alien fight from Aliens, though at least there it was straightforward mom vs. mom. This particular battle was definitely representing what you discuss above.

I'm sure there's an entire thesis in Deathly Hallows alone on a variety of subjects, though. I am rather tempted to do a bit more digging on the religious question myself. I've long wondered if magic functions differently in societies who integrated it into spiritual belief. For example would Japanese wizards and witches have had the same need to hide away from the Muggle world without intense Christian prosecution? Without an Inquisition or a sharp demarcation between magic and spirituality, how would a wizarding society exist? Do "wizards" simply become "priests" in that case?

And are the wounds caused by the witch hunts in western wizarding responsible for keeping everyone but the Muggle born from even an understanding of religion; or is it more that they have no need for a theology when they comprehend not only the what happens after death, but actually have the power to prolong life indefinitely or decide the terms of their own afterlife. Do they need a concept of God at all, or is magic sufficient? Are they, actually, the ultimate humanists?

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

I missed the God references in the last book, but I had noticed their absense throughout the series in general. I definitely see what you mean by wizards being emblematic of uber-humanists...that especially works if you consider the Death Eaters as wizardly eugenicists.

I'll send along my Tipping the Velvet conference paper, I always feel like I'm pushing this academic nonsense on people though!

[jsmitty-o.livejournal.com]

I notice the God comment, too. Actually, I noticed in earlier books that they only ever said "thank goodness" and never "thank God." So in this book, when one of the 3 said "thank God" I was surprised. And then I noticed that right after one said "thank God" another said "thank goodness" in the next breath. At the time I figured it was an editing mistake. Her editor missed so much else that forgetting to change a "thank God" to a "thank goodness" is not unexpected.

I think JK was smart to just ignore the whole spirituality element the whole way through. I didn't take that to mean that the people in the wizarding world are atheists. Instead, I took it to mean that JK just didn't EVEN want to go there and touch on that. Just ignore the whole concept of a "prime mover"/"uncaused cause"/god the entire way through. You're much less likely to piss off a bunch of customers. ;)

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Yeah and as I've said elsewhere it makes sense that a group of individuals who had been heavily persecuted in the past by Christians would turn their back on organized religion. Beyond that there's really not terribly much that a God could do for them that they can't do or answer for themselves. You know?