(no subject)

[ebonlock]

I am bereft of a theme for today's post I'm afraid. It may come off as a series of random thoughts, so I apologize in advance.

Got home from my errands last night in time to water the plants, also noted that the mostly dead strawberry plant is producing what look to be huge fruits. Thank the gods I'm an optimist when it comes to my little green babies, and that my composting skillz rule. I'm quite convinced the combination of good soil, compost, and some moisture retaining moss is going to lead to a kick ass strawberry patch this year. That is if I can keep the snails at bay. A trip to OSH should take care of that problem. Yay copper!

Aelf and I settled in for some crocheting and "Stargate" last night, got my sister L-'s afghan finished and started on my own. Woo! Love the navy-grape color and I've got enough purple homespun to create a kickass border on it. Of course I'll be finishing it up just as the weather gets warm 'cause that's how my life works. At least I've got the veil to work on too, a lapfull of veil is a lot less heavy and warm to work with. Must get more trim for that.

Must...practice...dance...tonight. I have too many choreography ideas and not enough time to actually work on them or even jot them down. I've got my own choreography pretty well worked out in my head, it's just a matter of trying to emulate it physically, that's the tricky bit.

Also, for anyone interested in learning to drum or who'd like to practice with their zills aelfsciene picked up some fantastic practice mixes from Alyne on Monday. Most of one CD is drumming stuff and the rhythms start with a fairly simply beladi and then escalate into complexity later on. I have this vision of a bunch of us sitting around on my deck with the music playing in the background while some play drums and others keep time on their zills. Sound like fun to anyone else?

And for those of you who haven't done so yet, take at least one of Alyne's classes. Seriously, do it. I don't often go over the top praising a teacher, but even my kindest words for her are not nearly enough to describe my respect and admiration of the lady's talent and generosity of spirit. Anyone even considering it please check out her site bellydance.com, or ask me for more details. She will be holding a double veil workshop this Sunday, and the beginners class is just that, no experience necessary! If you've ever had any desire at all to give veils a try this is the perfect chance to do so. She even has loaner veils, so no excuse not to go, got it?



Exclusive: The Evil of Cluster Bombs
On that particular street, many Iraqi military vehicles were abandoned, burned out after being targeted by US planes. A resident of the street, who said his uncle and sister were killed in the bombings, told Arab News: “I think the Americans wanted to destroy these military trucks, but in order to do that they had to destroy our neighborhood three streets deep.”

In an adjacent ward lay a 15-year-old boy, his left arm missing from below the elbow and his face and stomach severely burned. No one Arab News spoke to was celebrating the reported news of Saddam Hussein’s death. “I don’t believe what we are hearing,” said a 42-year-old hotel receptionist.

“Even if he is dead, it’s not worth the price our children and families have paid,” he added.

Saddam Hussein General Hospital alone has seen 307 deaths and treated 920 injuries. Of those, only 20 of the dead and 50 of the injured were soldiers.

The people of Najaf need water, electricity and munitions clearing teams more urgently than they need a new government.


Aid that comes too little, too late

"We have had no food for a month," said Mr Hussain. An English teacher by profession, he now drives a taxi for a living, ferrying people from Basra to the nearby market town of Zubayr. As he walked around his living room, he pointed to empty tables. The family's other belongings, he said, including a TV set and hi-fi, had been sold years before to pay for basic essentials. "First, the government kills us," he said. "Then, the Americans and the British bomb our houses. We cannot do anything. We have nothing."

Full list of casualties

Wednesday April 9, 2003

Casualties so far
US - 91 killed (27 non-combat);172 injured; 16 missing; 7 PoWs

UK - 30 killed (22 non-combat); 74 injured

Iraqi military - about 4,000 (coalition estimate); 9000 PoWs

Iraqi civilians - (Iraqi estimate) 1,252 killed; 5,103 injured

Journalists - 9 killed; 2 injured; 2 missing

British military casualties. Source: MoD

British personnel officially confirmed as dead: 30
British personnel officially confirmed as missing in action: none
British personnel officially confirmed as prisoners of war: none




Somehow I can't think of a single thing to say...

Comments

[centerfire.livejournal.com]

Of course, any death or injury is a shame. But, again, I think some perspective is important.

Even assuming that the Iraqi casualty figures (reprinted credulously by the Guardian) are wholly accurate?

The Dresden firebombing killed anywhere from 35,000 to 125,000 (depending on whose numbers you prefer), mostly civilians, in about 18 hours. We've been in Iraq for about that many days, at only a slightly diminished pace of bombing, and have killed and injured less than 20% of the low-end Dresden estimates.

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Of course, any death or injury is a shame. But, again, I think some perspective is important.

Even assuming that the Iraqi casualty figures (reprinted credulously by the Guardian) are wholly accurate?

Well they seem to jibe pretty closely with what the Red Cross is saying so far, from what I can tell.

The Dresden firebombing killed anywhere from 35,000 to 125,000 (depending on whose numbers you prefer), mostly civilians, in about 18 hours. We've been in Iraq for about that many days, at only a slightly diminished pace of bombing, and have killed and injured less than 20% of the low-end Dresden estimates.

I've tried to look at the numbers alone and compare and contrast them to others. I mean we've killed fewer civillians (theoretically) than were killed in the Congo and buried in mass graves recently. Uh..go us? Sorry, it's just hard for me to be objective about so many dead and suffering people right now. And yet they're nowhere to be found in any of the t.v. coverage...

[centerfire.livejournal.com]

I think what I'm getting at is that the war is being fought relatively humanely on our end, especially considering the kinds of military strikes the United States has performed on populated areas in the past.

Before the war started, people were talking about the potential for tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives lost to indiscriminate coalition bombing, usually in an attempt to portray the United States as indifferent to the human suffering caused by a sustained bombing campaign. Those kinds of horrific casualties haven't happened, and barring a dramatic and unforseen turn of events, aren't going to happen.

Appropos of nothing, I wonder how many of the civilian casualties resulted from the Saddam's goons deliberately putting innocents in harm's way. I also wonder whether Fedayeen Saddam casualties are considered military or civilian.

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Appropos of nothing, I wonder how many of the civilian casualties resulted from the Saddam's goons deliberately putting innocents in harm's way. I also wonder whether Fedayeen Saddam casualties are considered military or civilian.

Good questions, both, and I'm hoping the Red Cross will be able to come back with some equally good answers when they can really get into most of the war zones.

[aelfsciene.livejournal.com]

So, just because higher civilian casualties have been caused in the past, we don't need to be concerned about what's happening now? Dresden was nearly 60 years ago, and with all the highly-touted "precision bombing," I would certainly hope the casualties would be lower. But it doesn't invalidate the worry that more civilian deaths will stir up even more anit-American sentiment, and while you may be convinced that we don't need the rest of the world, I can't agree with that.

[centerfire.livejournal.com]

With respect, I think it's pretty naive to think that there's anything the United States could do or not do, short of ceasing to exist, that would fail to provoke more anti-American sentiment, especially in the Middle East. The reason many of these countries incubate such hatred toward the West in general and America in particular is to deflect outrage over their own failures. It's easier to blame us for being imperialist baby-killers than it is for them to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

For fear of opening another can of worms...

How many people were killed on the attacks on New York and Washington?

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

For fear of opening another can of worms...

How many people were killed on the attacks on New York and Washington?

Two questions:

1) What does Al-Qaeda have to do with Saddam Hussein's regime? As I recall it was the former rather than the latter that was responsible for 9/11.

2) "We killed fewer innocent civillians than they did" doesn't say much. I mean we're supposed to be the "good guys", isn't killing any number of innocents a bad thing? We're on very shaky moral ground with a good portion of the world right now, the more careful we are, and the fewer casualties we produce the better, for a variety of reasons.

[centerfire.livejournal.com]

1) What does Al-Qaeda have to do with Saddam Hussein's regime? As I recall it was the former rather than the latter that was responsible for 9/11.

Well. We have been dealing with a few Iraq-friendly terrorist groups up in the northern part of the country, and at least a couple of them have links to al Qaeda. There've been traces of botulinum and ricin found at some of these sites.

It's not exactly a Polaroid of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden sharing a beer at a bomb-making party, but if nothing else it's yet more evidence that Iraq harbors terrorists, including al Qaeda linked groups, within its borders. The question also occurs: where would these guys get their hands on botulinum and ricin?

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Well. We have been dealing with a few Iraq-friendly terrorist groups up in the northern part of the country, and at least a couple of them have links to al Qaeda. There've been traces of botulinum and ricin found at some of these sites.

I'll hold my comment on that until we're absolutely sure about those particular facts.

It's not exactly a Polaroid of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden sharing a beer at a bomb-making party, but if nothing else it's yet more evidence that Iraq harbors terrorists, including al Qaeda linked groups, within its borders. The question also occurs: where would these guys get their hands on botulinum and ricin?

Not quite so sure that this indicates that they harbor them, again I haven't seen any evidence that Saddam's regime has been anything but antagonistic to fundamentalist terrorist organizations. And vice versa.

Do I think he shed any tears over actions like 9/11? Hell, he probably threw a party, but I don't believe this was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The only thing Ossama and Saddam have in common is a hatred for the US and its policies in the Middle East. Aside from that they're polar opposites, and quite probably, bitter enemies.

[murdoch.livejournal.com]

The question also occurs: where would these guys get their hands on botulinum and ricin?

The bacteria that produces botulinum is found in the wild. I think that culturing enough is a matter of space rather than resources. Ricin is a product of castor beans... I'm not sure how hard it is to get said beans, but once you have them, extracting it would be pretty easy.

Also, although not a WMD, speed can be made from over-the-counter Sudofed. How many speed labs are in the US? A number of WMD syntheses are about as complicated; some are downright trivial.

So, not so much a smoking gun linking them to Iraq unless the impurities in the batches match up as well.

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

1) Last I heard (and I could be wrong -- I'm willing to be wrong in this), the Al-Qaeda was holed up in Iraq, being harbored and encouraged by Hussein.

2) No, it doesn't say much. Killing innocents is bad. I don't want to lower us to their level, but dammit, I'm tired of the US being dogged and spit upon and beaten and all we do is talk talk talk. As much as I *hate* the Shrub Regime, sometimes, it takes action, not words. Yes, I'm upset that innocents are getting caught in the crossfire, but a LOT of those innocents were shoved into the crossfire like so many meat shields by the Iraqi 'army', while they were shooting at our people from behind them. We're honoring a lot of things when the Iraqis are fighting dirty. We're not firing into mosques, but they're firing out of them. We're allowing them to come close under a flag of truce, and they're butchering us for it. Unacceptable. Is this entire thing right? Probably not. Is it warranted? To an extent. Is it going to cause world peace? No. Someone is always going to hate us. Does that suck? Damn right it does. It sucks a lot that we stick our noses in where we're not wanted, but I'd rather that than have a gajillion screeching zealots (most of whom don't live in Berkeley) come at us with bombs. Tyrants in any country need to die. If Saddam is dead, mission accomplished. I want dental records, though.

[tersa.livejournal.com]

1) Last I heard (and I could be wrong -- I'm willing to be wrong in this), the Al-Qaeda was holed up in Iraq, being harbored and encouraged by Hussein.

Last I heard, the U.S. had not yet found any proof that Al-Qaeda and Hussein where in bed with each other--or even on a first date. Lots of circumstantial evidence involving suspected Al-Qaeda members passing through Iraq, but nothing linking them to Hussein or his regime. As much as the Shrub government is looking very hard for such a link.

Just to toss in my $.02 on the other stuff, too, although I am greatly saddened by civilian deaths, as much as I was saddened and stunned by the WTC and Pentagon bombings, I have to agree with the wondering of how many of them were put into harms way by the Iraqi government, *expressly* for the purpose of generating sympathy for when the innocents die. It's no better than taking a hostage, just on a much grander scale and, on a much grander scale (and in the context of a *war*), sometimes, you have to risk the hostage to get to the crazy man behind them with the machine gun.

This isn't like Dresden, and it's not even like Russia gassing 100+ innocent hostages (with some deaths) just to get to the Cechnyan hostage takers, last year. This is *war*.

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

1) Last I heard (and I could be wrong -- I'm willing to be wrong in this), the Al-Qaeda was holed up in Iraq, being harbored and encouraged by Hussein.

Unfortunately nobody has been able to produce even the slightest evidence of this, though gods know Powell did try:
Rumsfeld's Exaggerations: On the Saddam/Al-Qaeda Link
(http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20021002.htm)
Leaked report rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2727471.stm)
The classified document, written by defence intelligence staff three weeks ago, says there has been contact between the two in the past.

His [Bin Laden's] aims are in ideological conflict with present day Iraq

But it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies.

"If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda and we believed in that relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it." Saddam Hussein


It may help to think about it in these terms, Ossam's a fundamentalist psycho, Saddam is a secular psycho.

2) No, it doesn't say much. Killing innocents is bad. I don't want to lower us to their level, but dammit, I'm tired of the US being dogged and spit upon and beaten and all we do is talk talk talk.


Hey no question or argument there. But talk is...well it's important. Right now what I'd like to hear more talk about is constructive ways this country can make a difference in the world and change a lot of the global perception of who and what we are. I don't think we're ever going to be able to change everyones' minds, but I'd prefer not to be seen in quite the negative light we currently are.

As much as I *hate* the Shrub Regime, sometimes, it takes action, not words. Yes, I'm upset that innocents are getting caught in the crossfire, but a LOT of those innocents were shoved into the crossfire like so many meat shields by the Iraqi 'army', while they were shooting at our people from behind them. We're honoring a lot of things when the Iraqis are fighting dirty. We're not firing into mosques, but they're firing out of them. We're allowing them to come close under a flag of truce, and they're butchering us for it.

Well yeah, but isn't this the sort of thing we expected them to do? If you want to hold off a super power you can't play by the rules of war, you fight dirty. They're supposed to be doing nasty, evil shit like that, and if anybody tells you they didn't see it coming... Well best to leave that thought there. We, however, are not supposed to be bombing farmhouses and killing civillians and reporters. Honest mistakes? Mmm, probably, but we're under the world's microscope right now, by our own choice, and we can't really cry foul when they point out our missteps.

The best thing we can do right now is not to deny our mistakes, comment that they're "being investigated" or blame the Iraqis. The best thing we could do is to own up to them, apologize, and try not to make them again.

Unacceptable. Is this entire thing right? Probably not. Is it warranted? To an extent. Is it going to cause world peace? No. Someone is always going to hate us. Does that suck? Damn right it does. It sucks a lot that we stick our noses in where we're not wanted, but I'd rather that than have a gajillion screeching zealots (most of whom don't live in Berkeley) come at us with bombs. Tyrants in any country need to die. If Saddam is dead, mission accomplished. I want dental records, though.

Ok, but we kill Saddam, then what? I think that's what a lot of folks are wondering right now. Will that silence the gajillion screeching zealots? Does it get us any closer to catching Ossama? Does it do anything to stabilize the Israel/Palestine conflict? And do the ends justify the means ultimately? I'm guessing only history will tell us that.

Moral ground

[forkmonkey.livejournal.com]

I lament the civilian deaths, and the deaths of our own people. I lament the suffering people had to endure in this war. I am nonetheless intensely proud that we have managed to achieve so much with so little suffering. Yes, I see the numbers you quote as vindication rather than condemnation. I'm amazed they are so low. I'm proud of how low they are. I'm fiercly angry that Hussein was who he was and did what he did to prompt all of this. I'm frustrated that the rest of the world's obstructionism has made this harder than it needed to be and likely caused more deaths on all sides. I'm scared about the small coalition having to go it alone. I still think it's the right thing to have done.

It's easy to say that any death is bad. Any non-zero number is a ready-made excuse for the world to wail, gnash its teeth, and point at the Evil USA. In my mind, the 'no death is acceptable' approach to the situation is a naieve cop-out to avoid making tough decisions. It's a lot harder to weigh the choice of allowing a world-threatening horror-show dictatorship to remain in power versus the risk of political fallout and the casualties of war. I think we chose the moral high ground. We looked at the scale and decided that the status quo was the worse option. Once recognized as the right thing to do, the action became inevitable for a moral-minded person and the political resistance merely unfortunate. I know you don't think it was the right choice, that your scales were tipped in the other direction from your point of view. I urge you to remember that they are scales, though. Don't just pile everything on one side and ignore the other. I have a challenge for you: Try to find three things the US has done here that you are proud of. I'll find three I'm ashamed of.

Re: Moral ground

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Don't just pile everything on one side and ignore the other. I have a challenge for you: Try to find three things the US has done here that you are proud of. I'll find three I'm ashamed of.


I don't know that I can find three things that I'm proud that they've actively done to date. I'm relieved that "Shock and Awe" didn't begin with a wholesale slaughter under a rain of bombs. Very, very glad about that. I'm glad that many of our troops have opened up their medical facilities to help those who have been injured. And I'm glad things are progressing quickly.

What would make me proud? I guess if after the conflict we actually allow the Iraqi people to govern themselves with little to no influence from our government. If we then turned our attention to the Israel/Palestine conflict, not in a militaristic manner, rather with a real desire to help both sides to come a peaceful agreement.

If we've declared ourselves the arbiters of world justice there are lots of places that need our help as much or more than Iraq. I think justice and freedom from tyranny are good things, but not just in areas of the world in which we have a vested interest...

[mallen.livejournal.com]

Wow. I don't have much to add beyond Graham's response. It very coherently sums up my reaction this morning. I am proud to be an American today. Very proud.

Re:

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Wow. I don't have much to add beyond Graham's response. It very coherently sums up my reaction this morning. I am proud to be an American today. Very proud.

I envy you, I really do wish I could be. It's very hard to find anything to be proud of at the moment. Hopefully our actions in Iraq and the Middle East in the coming months will change that for me. I guess we'll see.