He's got a point...

[ebonlock]

Brad R. sums up Randians:

Y’know how some people can have completely fucked up political beliefs and still be good people on a personal level? Has anyone else noticed that that is never the case for Randians, who on a political and personal level are the biggest fucking douchebags in the entire godless world?

Comments

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

I have to say, that while I've always whole-heartedly agreed with Rand's basic principle of Objectivism (and from our discussions, I suspect you actually do too), I've never understood the political conclusions that Libertarians and so-called Randians draw from it. Or maybe it is simply that I don't understand how a philosophy that emphasizes the importance of being responsible for your own happiness translates into any sort of political agenda at all because politics is, generally, about deciding how others should or can behave.

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

The problem with Randian Objectivism is that somehow the idea of the pursuit of one's happiness gets translated into a necessity for laissez-faire capitalism. In my estimation, this kind of unchecked political/economic system often leads to corporate dictatorships that are actively opposed to individualistic pursuits of happiness. In short, it doesn't work like it says on the tin.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Precisely! Very well put, thanks. :)

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is with Ayn Rand herself. I can buy into the pursuit of happiness, but I'm not so sure that sits wells next to her ideas about rational egoism. So, we're not supposed to coerce others or be coerced by others in the pursuit of happiness...but how does that figure into capitalism? In my experience, capitalism is all about coercion. I've also yet to see how capitalism emphasizes individualism...corporate capitalism certainly doesn't.

[ebongreen.livejournal.com]

As you say in more words, Objectivism is a nice philosophy for a vacuum - an ideal space in which no human has power (for weal or woe) over any other. Sadly (or not), we do not live in such a world.

[scar-let.livejournal.com]

Well...I wouldn't even say that it's a nice philosophy. Check out Rand's ideas about the appropriate power dynamics between men and women.

[scoreboard.livejournal.com]

I'm swamped and I still have the entire Baroque Cycle to get through before I'm issued any other books. Any chance I could persuade you to sum up the sonofabitch in 100 words or less? Skip plot and character, just gimme the philosophical underpinnings...

IN other news, I got my forklift cert renewed today, so I am still 100% employable ;]

The Wiki is Wise...

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

"Atlas Shrugged is often seen as Rand's most extensive statement of Objectivism in any of her works of fiction. In its appendix, she offered this summary:

'My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.'"

Re: The Wiki is Wise...

[scoreboard.livejournal.com]

And over 20 words to spare. Bravo.

Big question: is this how it works out in the implementation or where do the holes pop up? (I could figure this out myself, probably, with a browser and time, but I gotta argue out this HURT-ting office move...)

Re: The Wiki is Wise...

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Well, I suppose, if I understand your question correctly, that it depends on whom you ask. If you ask me, there seems to be a huge leap in logic from pursuing your own happiness and producing things to laissez-faire capitalism. And if you study Rand, you quickly begin to see large gaps in her arguments and blatant contradictions. Even a self-described Randian might concede that point, as the Objectivist movement has all sorts of factions, many of whom denounce this part of her beliefs or that part. In that way, I feel little shame for the fact that I carried The Fountainhead around in my backpack all through high school and revered it like most would the Holy Bible. But really, any time you try to base a political movement on one person's [published] beliefs, it just flat out isn't going to work.

right...

[scoreboard.livejournal.com]

...I now have a one-inch crack in my skull from trying to parse all this at work.

On the one hand, it seems like a refreshing antidote to all the postmodernist stuff that somehow leapt from liberal-arts English departments to neoconservatism in under ten years. The notion that the real exists, independent of perception, is nice and concrete.

However, I can totally see this as an enabling philosophy for the Hayek and Mieses acolytes who are convinced that they are The Ones and that they shouldn't be encumbered by the vultures and barnacles of society. Especially since I spent my void-formerly-known-as-college with most of those folks. Shit, where's my pinata when I need it?

I will work on this some more tonight. Sigh. Political theory homework after all these years...

Got it.

[scoreboard.livejournal.com]

Pinata? At the ready. ;]

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Well Brad is being very specific in his objections to Randians, and that's on a political level. As you say it should never be slapped onto politics, and when some folks try to force it... Well, here's an example of what happens:
On Fox News Your World, Jonathan Hoenig, managing member of Capitalistpig Asset Management LLC, asserted that bombing Iran would raise the Dow Jones industrial average. Hoening stated: (http://mediamatters.org/items/200606060009)

[F]rankly, if you want to see the Dow go up, let's get the bombers in the air and neutralize this Iranian threat. We've gone to the negotiating table, we have danced around with these people and that's not going to help this country nor the stock market.�

Yes, let's kill a bunch of people for no particular reason just so we can make more money. Fabulous idea.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

I look at that and I look at Rand's definition of Objectivism, and I just do not see the connection. Would Howard Roark bomb Iran? Well, maybe, but only if he used bombs that perfectly complemented the natural surroundings....

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Not quite sure how he got there, but according to his own website: (http://www.capitalistpig.com/media.html)

We advocate and practice Objectivism, the moral philosophy developed by Ayn Rand.

...and it gets even better: (http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?portal_id=35&page_id=123)

Middle school offered a perfect introduction to commodities and markets for Jonathan Hoenig, a fledgling wheeler-dealer who hoarded pens for resale to fellow students caught without one during a test.

“I might get a quarter for one if it was desperately needed,” he recalls.

[melimus.livejournal.com]

I have never read any of her books but a friend once summed up the philosophy as "Only certain people matter, and I am one of them."

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Having never read her books either I too have heard this and cannot help but agree with it given the people who seem to idolize her. I mean the people who idolize her after they graduate from high school.