ebonlock | (no subject)

Fun, busy weekend and productive too. The henna experiment was fun, even if it did turn my hair sample "scary clown" orange. I cleaned it up in the morning and exclaimed, "Gah!", then told myself it would look better after it dried. Held it up to my face after that and thought, "I don't wanna be a Weasley!" Well, experiment Phase II will begin this coming weekend.

Ended up being busy Saturday from 10:30 a.m. to about 1:00 a.m. Sunday, but had such a glorious time that it seemed far too short a day.

tamago was very naughty and got me hooked on music fanvids. But she needs to point me at that fantastic SW one to "Teenage Dirtbag" as I can't find the damn thing anywhere, and believe me I spent most of Sunday trying.

Got up bright and far too early Sunday to see "Memoirs of a Geisha", which was very pretty and I thought, a fairly decent version of the novel. They skipped a lot and didn't really go into the significance of a few episodes (the fire damage at the Okia was kind of skimmed over, for example), but it did make me want to read the novel again. And hey, two hours of Michelle Yeoh and Ziyi Zhang is not a bad thing.

Ok, now I've got a question regarding HP that is a bit odd, but bear with me. I need to know if you're using Polyjuice Potion to make yourself look like someone else, does that person need to be alive? From what I can tell the hair is all you really need, and there's no textual evidence that would indicate that you need to collect it from a living person. So could you collect hair from a recently deceased person and use it in a PP? Would it still work? If not, why not?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

jsmitty-o.livejournal.com

I guess the answer depends on how it actually works, and whether JKR would go with a more magical explanation (which, to me, implies the person needs to be alive) or a more DNA version (which, to me, implies alive or dead).

But if the person could be alive or dead, that certainly allows for some interesting plot lines...
However, I'm going to guess the person needs to be alive.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

But if the person could be alive or dead, that certainly allows for some interesting plot lines...
However, I'm going to guess the person needs to be alive.

I think there's a strong argument to be made that this is a form of sympathetic magic, like a voodoo doll. In that case, yeah the person would need to be alive. But the only textual evidence we have really is Barty Crouch Jr.'s use of it. He kept Moody alive throughout, but justifies it in GoF because he had him under an Imperius and was using information he got from Moody to trick Albus. So I don't think that gives me a definitive "Yes the victim must be kept alive".

Now if I'm talking about someone who's very recently deceased, I mean maybe not even entirely cool yet, would it work?

From:

tyee.livejournal.com

Well, Barty also needed a continuing supply of Moody's hair for the potion so that might also be a reason to keep him alive. Although hair doesn't generally decompose that fast, so I guess it is unclear whether Moody needed to stay alive for Barty to keep making the potion.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

Yeah he could've just shaved the guy as it didn't look like much was needed even to maintain the facade for as long as he did. But he did need the info Moody possessed so kept him alive and close at hand.

From:

tyee.livejournal.com

The other thing that comes to mind is that when you take the potion, you look like the person when you took the tissue sample. So would you look like the dead person? Interesting.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

Well yes and no, I mean Moody was in pretty bad shape at the bottom of that trunk, patches of hair missing, etc. But Barty didn't look like that when he took the potion, rather as a sort of general appearance of the man. I can't find any textual reference to whether you look like the person at the time you took the hair sample or whether you just look like the person normally does.

From:

tyee.livejournal.com

Yeah, it'd be interesting to know if you'd taken the potion, and the other person did something to change their appearance -- hair cut, shaved face, etc. if you assume the changed appearance or not. Wonder if that will ever become clearer...

From:

jsmitty-o.livejournal.com

Now if I'm talking about someone who's very recently deceased, I mean maybe not even entirely cool yet, would it work?

I think it depends on the potion actually works. Does it work on the DNA of the person (or similar), or does it work on the spirit of the person? And when it comes to spirit, you enter into the whole Mind-Body problem. Maybe the only link to the spirit of the person, to "copy" or mimic it, is that the body part you took (e.g. hair). And maybe when the person dies, there is no longer a link between the spirit and the body. If that's the case, then a dead for a long time person wouldn't work. But if you make the argument that the spirit hasn't *fully* left the body yet... you might be able to make the case that the potion could work. Kind of like Billy Crystal in The Princess Bride, "he's not dead, he's just *mostly* dead." ;)

From:

jsmitty-o.livejournal.com

Ummm, add "how" between "on" and "the" in the first line.

sigh.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

I guess what this is coming down to is, is this more like sympathetic magic or is it more like alchemy? If it's the latter I can get away with it, if not, then I can't justify it.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

Let's go with a theoretical, person dies, sample is taken almost immediately afterwards by someone with access to the crime scene. Potion is all set and just requires the addition of said ingredient, done quickly. Person takes potion, changes, and everything is done within an hour of the victim's death.

Or, how about this, person is dying, hair is collected but not used until after the victim dies.

From:

jsmitty-o.livejournal.com

Well, if you're asking me which I think it is, I think you're charmingly cute. Barking up the wrong tree, but cute. ;) I think you have a couple options:
1) Just decide which you think it is and go with it and maybe explain it just a touch in your fic.
B) Make an LJ poll!

Also, if you want me to give my opinion, I'll need a better understanding of what you mean by sympathetic magic.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

Yeah I really am interested in what you think of this, I need to hear some theories and play with them for a few days before I can decide on which one I want to go with.

Sympathetic magic is basically the oldest form of magic, using one object or thing to represent another, the connection between the two being on a spiritual level. For example, a voodoo doll, or think about the old cave art that our ancestors used. They'd paint a good hunt featuring a game animal falling to their spears, if they created this symbol of it, then it would influence the game animals. Whether you go with the concept that it pleased their spirits and convinced them to give their lives, or that the images controlled the creatures and dictated the outcome, the theory remains the same.

Actually, let me point you here (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/s/sympathetic_magic.html) as it's the best summation of sympathetic magic I've found.

I'd tend to consider potions more along the lines of alchemy, myself, more a matter of ingredients and technique than spiritual connection. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

From:

jsmitty-o.livejournal.com

Hmm, I'm a little bit torn, and could go either way, too. But I'll show you my thought process.

At first, I want to go with alchemy. But that's the scientist in me. I want "logic" of some kind, and I want something at least resembling science. And even though there is no true science in magic (well, not in my personal opinion, anyway), I want the magic to at least get as close as it can.

But as I thought about that further, it opens a can of works mentioned in this post's thread already. When you make the potion, which age of the person do you mimic? If the person is still alive, presumably the current version. But what happens if you go to someone's grave and get some locket of hair or a tooth? Do you get to pick the age? Do you get the age of the person before he/she died? Or do you turn into some decaying "thing?" And of course, how do you count for the exact look of the person?

So I started thinking along the lines of sympathetic magic, something spiritual. But then that introduces a different set of issues. If there is a connection between the metaphysical and the physical, and if you can tap into the metaphysical just by possessing a *piece* of the physical, then the world is a dangerous place. And to what, exactly, do you have access? Are you mimicing a spirit, or does it occupy your physical space at the time? And can you influence the spirit? The more I think about this, this scares me. =) It also poses the problem of where/how does the spirit "touch" the physical? Is it in each cell? Is it only present in a collection of cells? Particular cells? This is where the mind-body problem enters.

So, I go back to alchemy. I think it's the easiest answer with the fewest number of open-ended questions. However, I'd say that it's only good while they're alive or VERY soon after death. Or, like you said, that the cells had to have come from a live person, but that you could hold on to the cells for either unlimited time or some sort of reasonable amount of time. I think one could easily make the argument that if you took cells from a dead body, or from a grave, that you would end up imitating the state the cells were in when you took them. That is, you would become dead or decomposed. Yum!

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

Yay! This is the conclusion I've pretty much come to as well. Now there's definitely a magical element to the potion making, which..er..will be more obvious when you get to Book 6 so I'll shut up now. But I think JKR makes it clear that we're not talking about straight chemistry here, even if some wizards view it that way...*cough*Sirius*cough* So if we can agree on the fact that you could use cells from someone shortly after death it makes my story's big reveal scene work and I'm so happy!

From:

elo-sf.livejournal.com

Good question on PP... I would vote needs to be alive, but I can see contrary arguments working.

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

For a fic I'm writing I need the person to be dead, but I really do need to be able to justify this use in my own head before I can write it. :(

From:

elo-sf.livejournal.com

...you know, if this is your biggest dilemma, life must be pretty good. :)

We need to start getting together again during the week, I just do NOT see enough of you...

From:

ebonlock.livejournal.com

...you know, if this is your biggest dilemma, life must be pretty good. :)

And it may be an indicator that I need to stop writing plots and just get back to smut :)

We need to start getting together again during the week, I just do NOT see enough of you...

Amen to that, though this week is crazy right now...the weekend, however, I could easily make time for something if you're free.