Good Christ...

[ebonlock]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-twodads2jan02,0,3188265.story?coll=la-home-local

In a clash that pits Catholic teachings against shifting values of American society, a group of parishioners and parents has accused Orange County church leaders of defying Pope John Paul II by allowing a gay couple to enroll their two boys in a diocese school.

Eighteen people signed a letter last month demanding that St. John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa accept only families that sign a pledge to live by Catholic doctrine — a move that effectively would kick the boys out of school. The church regards homosexual acts as sinful, and in 2003 the pontiff condemned marriage and adoption by same-sex couples.
[...]
But Father Martin Benzoni, who oversees the 550-student elementary and middle school, last week rejected the group's demands. He released a new policy stating that a child's education comes first and that a family's background "does not constitute an absolute obstacle to enrollment in the school."
[...]
But several other conservative and liberal Catholic leaders backed the school, saying that regardless of the church's views on homosexuality and same-sex unions, it would be wrong to punish the children.

"To single out these kids because of their gay parents would be invidious," said William Donohue, president of the conservative Catholic League. "You cannot burden the innocent."
[...]
But Father Gerald M. Horan, superintendent of schools run by the Diocese of Orange, rejected the idea of a parental covenant. If the school barred gay parents from enrolling their children, they would also have to ban children of parents who violate other church teachings, including those who are divorced, use birth control or weren't married in the church, he said.
[...]
It's unclear how many parents at the school are aware of the debate or how many object to the boys' enrollment. But one mother said she and several other parents support the school's decision.

"It's a shame that a minority of loonies chooses to hate instead of love," said Katie Flores, whose daughter is a classmate of the boys. "Let he [who is] without sin cast the first stone."

Comments

[tersa.livejournal.com]

Good for the superintendent!

My Catholic schools had certain contractual requirements for some of the teachers (couldn't remarry a divorcee springs to mind--we think one teacher left his position because of this), but they were open to just about any student. And, personally, I thought that was just fine.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Yay for the school. It really scares me when stories like this come out of one of the towns I grew up in.

[kirbyk.livejournal.com]

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<But Father Gerald M. Horan, superintendent of schools run by the Diocese of Orange, rejected the idea of a parental covenant. If the school barred gay parents from enrolling their children, they would also have to ban children of parents who violate other church teachings, including those who are divorced, use birth control or weren't married in the church, he said.>

I'd almost rather they did this. It'd be a wake-up call to Catholics that, in strict biblical doctrine, even if you read the passages in question as gay = sin, it's no more worse a sin than these other everyday things. It's nowhere near a ten-commandmant level thing.

One of my favorite stories I've heard was of a preacher in the 80s, affected by stories of AIDS, that called up a local Gay community group and invited them to come to his church. When his parisioners objected mightily, his response was along the lines of, "Yes, I invited the homosexuals to come sit next to you liars, adulterers, and thieves, those of you with lust in your hearts, those of you who do not follow the Lord fully. For we are all sinners, and God has compassion for all of us. None of you are any better than any of them."

Amen!

(Though I still prefer my godless heathen existance, all things considered.)

(And I typo'd that as dogless initially, which amuses me.)

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

E, as much as I love you for getting indignant about this stuff, honestly, there's nothing that can be done about it. They're a private school, so they can make whatever rules they want. If the Catholic Church doesn't like it, they can pull their sponsorship or whatever and yank the nun teachers out. The parents, similarly, can yank their kids out if they don't like the way things are happening. Some people just aren't very good at showing the Christian love about which they constantly spout off. And the superintendant of schools was pretty clear that they're going to continue to let the kids stay in that school.

The Catholic Church is one of the biggest and richest financial entities in the world. They're a soulless corporation and fighting against them does nothing, especially considering (a) they're based in Eurpoe, and (b) we live in a fundamentalist theocracy ourselves.

And honestly, what the fuck are homos doing putting their children in an atmosphere where they are guaranteed to be ridiculed, shunned and beaten because of who their parents are? I think the fault also lies in the gay parents of these boys.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

E, as much as I love you for getting indignant about this stuff, honestly, there's nothing that can be done about it.

Well I wasn't completely indignant about it, which is why I posted that the school administrators and many of the parents were strongly against the idea of booting two perfectly innocent kids out of a school because their parents were gay. Overall, as much as I think the parents group are a bunch of bigots who deserve to have their hatred and stupidity returned to them threefold, I applaud the school for doing the right thing.

Yeah maybe the Catholic Church is a corrupt, irredeemable entity, but I don't think that all Catholics are. Of course my exposure to Catholics is entirely of the Eastern Orthodox variety, in my family anyway. So I'm a bit skewed.

And honestly, what the fuck are homos doing putting their children in an atmosphere where they are guaranteed to be ridiculed, shunned and beaten because of who their parents are? I think the fault also lies in the gay parents of these boys.

I would disagree with you here, but I don't know what the thinking was on the parents' part. Did they enroll them to make a point? Did they enroll them because they had attended the school themselves and knew it would provide a quality education? Did they grow up Catholic and want their kids to go to a Catholic school? I honestly don't know, but I'd be willing to place money on a bet that neither parent ever wanted any harm to come to their kids.

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

Woah, I think that last paragraph is a bit of a slippery slope. After all, isn't everyone, gay or straight, allowed to choose their religion? How would you feel if this was a story about the Boy Scouts of America, instead of a Catholic school?

[elo-sf.livejournal.com]

i agree, keep divorcees and remarries, etc., out.

Reminds me of a B5 line from Delenn that with an eye-for-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth, etc., you end up with a blind toothless society.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

i agree, keep divorcees and remarries, etc., out.

Mmm, yeah I can go along with that too, though I suspect if they strictly enforce their rules it'd leave precious few students in their school. I wonder what kind of a world it would be if people focused on the "lying" and "stealing" rather than what other grown adults choose to do in their bedrooms...

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

Of course everyone's allowed to choose his or her own religion. And I would feel the same way if it was BSA. They're a private organization, and they can make their own rules. That doesn't mean I like or even respect them for it. I think their rules, as well as the rules of the Catholic Church, are antiquated, prejudiced and just plain stupid. That being said, if the parents are doing this to make a point, then they're using their children as game pieces, and that's not fair to the children. It's an education, not a political agenda. If gay parents want the best possible education for their children, a Catholic school is not the place for them, obviously, since the Catholic Church teaches that what those boys' parents are doing and how they live is evil.

[elo-sf.livejournal.com]

Well that's why advocate strictly interpreting their own laws if they want restrictions on the children. If nobody is in their school they might get the point. Trying to get them to change their rules is hard, making them adhere to their own is easier too...

[moonlightnrain.livejournal.com]

I disagree that is automatically not the place for the best education for these boys. After all, there are gay Catholics. Why shouldn't these two men be allowed to raise their children in their religion? Yes, it boggles my mind that someone would choose a religion that persecutes them, but many do. Hell, gay Republicans boggle my mind.

Also, my own experience in Costa Mesa public schools was positive, but perhaps this private school is offering a better curriculum than the public schools are now.

I think if I had a little girl, I'd love for her to be involved in the Girl Scouts. I learned a lot when I was a brownie, including, eventually, that the Girl Scouts wasn't the right place for me. But I'd hate to deny my child that same experience just because I'm gay.

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

If I were to have a little girl, I'd love for her to be involved in the Girl Scouts, too. They don't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation like the Boy Scouts do. Because honestly, it's more okay in this society for a girl to be a lesbian than it is for a boy to grow up gay, which makes me pretty damn angry, too. And I would totally recommend sending kids to private schools over public schools, honestly. There's not enough money to fund the public schools and make them a viable alternative. *shrug* Keep in mind that all of this is just my opinion. Being a gay man myself, I would *never* subject my children to anything remotely resembling something so homophobic as the Catholic Church or the Boy Scouts of America. There are other, better, more inclusive, positive organizations out there for kids of all backgrounds to enjoy.

[ebongreen.livejournal.com]

It's an education, not a political agenda.

Do you believe an apolitical education exists? Do you believe one can exist?

Parents raise their children as best as they see fit, to the principles they hold dear. Were the first black children to be enrolled in white schools as part of Southern desegregation "game pieces"? Was the decision to put them in those schools by the parents "worth it", even considering the epithets and hatred visited upon the heads and souls of those kids?

Freedom of association, freedom of religion and the old pursuit of life, liberty and happiness are clashing a lot these days. I have a hunch that freedom of association and religion are going to take it take the fall, but not without a lot of bruises and hurt feelings on both sides.

For example, we're fundamentally not free to disassociate anymore. Planet Earth is indivisible - we can't exile the people with whom we disagree to another continent, prison, or space-time continuum and be safely insulated from the consequences of their identities, actions or consequences. What happens in Iraq, or Chile, or Orange County affects me, and vice versa. We have to learn to get along, here and now, or there won't be much of either Here or Now left when we're done fighting over it.

[ebonlock.livejournal.com]

Parents raise their children as best as they see fit, to the principles they hold dear. Were the first black children to be enrolled in white schools as part of Southern desegregation "game pieces"? Was the decision to put them in those schools by the parents "worth it", even considering the epithets and hatred visited upon the heads and souls of those kids?

Yeah I made that association too, and I think it's a legitimate question. Where, as parents, do you draw the line between protecting your kids and fighting for what you believe in?

[xleste.livejournal.com]

My parents didn't intend for either myself or my younger sister to go to Christian schools. In fact, I remember distinctly that I was one of the only non-catholics in my catholic grade school and high school. I went there because where I lived, it was the only place to get a decent education because the public schools were SO bad.

[technocowboy.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do believe that an apolitical education can exist. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to put into effect, however.

The difference between desegregation in the 60s and the Catholic/Public/Private school debate, though, is vastly different, in my opinion (and please keep in mind that it is my opinion, and I'm willing to agree to disagree). In the 60s, the education that white kids were getting versus what black kids were getting was HUGELY different. Catholic schools, in my mind, are not up to the standards of public schools, let alone other private schools. Granted, I have no idea what private schools are available in their area, but the parents are, most likely without considering it, putting their children in the position to be harrassed constantly. I think that it's the parents' responsibility to make sure that their children are getting an education without harrassment.

Heh. I don't even know if I'm even making any sense on this or not. :)

[ebongreen.livejournal.com]

I think you have a point, and AFAIK your point is that parents shouldn't willfully place their children "in harm's way", and not have kids fighting their parent's battles. Yes?

I agree to an extent - parents who live vicariously through their children probably aren't very good parents. Parents need to have a sense of their children's independence and value as separate from the parents' desires on behalf of their kids.

On the other hand, I don't believe in the existence of an apolitical education. Public school educations are certainly politically influential and influenced by politics. Religious educations are certainly politically charged. Even the choice of home schooling is a political choice and narrows the politics to those of the parents. Mathematics is perhaps the least political topic on the planet, but once you move from mathematical theory into applied math - physics, or statistics - no holds are barred in the struggle to define the nature of the physical universe according to this political or religious doctrine or that one.

I also don't see that children outside of the home - or even inside of it, if there are other children in the house - can ever be sheltered from harrassment or ridicule, nor is it necessarily a parent's responsibility to prevent it. Nasty teasing seems to be something children do, and the source/topic of the ridicule matters only slightly. Whether it's height, weight, color, mental acuity, crushes, scholastic failures or successes, athletic ability, it doesn't matter much - kids are regularly nasty to other kids; the fact that these kids have gay parents is just one more button to be pushed. I just don't see that public school would be that much safer for them than Catholic school; parents need to support their kids' psyches no matter where they school.

You could make the case that public school has no inherent institutional bias against gay parents comparable to the Catholic Church's institutional bias, but I don't think that's going to matter to the kids - what matters will be how their immediate teachers and staff handle the matter. There are gay-friendly Catholics and bigoted Catholics, and there are gay-friendly public school staff and bigoted staff. Bigots are everywhere - it's a matter of choice where and how one confronts them, but not a matter of "if", I suspect, for these parents. It sounds like they're getting a lot of support from the Catholic community they've chosen, so it sounds like a good choice to me.

And as always, YMMV. Though I hope to have presented my views effectively and forthrightly, this is a friendly discussion, and I'm curious if I'm making sense to you as well.